@contrarian@dice.camp

· 1mo ago

Replying to

I bought an old collection of the "Bulletin of the British Model Soldier Society" this week, and might have another lead on German #toysoldier sizing? The December 1968 issue says defunct German manufacturer Heyde had TEN standard #miniatures sizes! I didn't know yet if these were guild standard sizes, or just Heyde's system.

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 5mo ago

The local bar stopped having #boardgame days, so my wife and I are trying game night at a cocktail club. Lower turnout, but I'm getting drunk faster than usual.

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 6mo ago

Replying to

I have an unusual number of #toysoldier-related interlibrary loans shipping to my local library, hoping one of them will give me some good historical citations on Nuremberg scale. The librarians will probably consider it a nice change from my usual books about UFOs and Tudor-era magicians.

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 6mo ago

Replying to

So I started as the beginning again, issue by issue to find exactly when The Courier changed it description standard. I didn't just find the transition, I found the founder's manifesto! A two-page article in 1990 advocating a new standard for measuring gaming #miniatures!

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 5mo ago

#GameStop destroying #eBay with a leveraged buyout would negatively affect my game collecting hobby, so I sincerely hope eBay's directors and investors tell Ryan Cohen to fuck right off.

https://www.semafor.com/article/05/05/2026/gamestop-ceo-ryan-cohens-unsolicited-bid-for-ebay-looks-doa

Gamestop CEO’s unsolicited bid for eBay looks DOA

semafor.com

Gamestop CEO’s unsolicited bid for eBay looks DOA

Ryan Cohen didn’t help his case Monday, when he squandered what goodwill he had with the Street in a disastrous CNBC interview.

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 6mo ago

Replying to

My oldest copy of The Courier described #miniatures according to their nominal scales. The newest issue used "The Toby Barrett Measurement System," which measured to eye height. Finally, something that sort of has a citation!

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 5mo ago

Replying to

High impact #dice were cool, but Lou Zocchi really changed the industry in 1980, when Gamescience started selling 10-sided d10. He proved that gamers would buy new dice shapes if they were useful. The 10-sider was hit. In 1981, TSR added it to the official #DnD dice sets.

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 5mo ago

Replying to

MetaScape flopped, but Lou kept selling the leftover #dice for years. Eventually, he decided to sell a "normal d16" and it was a big hit! Gamers still wanted more shapes of numbered dice. He followed up with a d14, d3, d5, and tod24. (I bought them all and use them all, of course.)

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 5mo ago

RE: https://dice.camp/@geeknative/116462530062971688

Calling the failure of WizardCon 2 #gameconvention "sudden" is total bullshit. It's been obvious for months it was in disarray. They never even got the event list working correctly on their website!

Geek Native is just being completely dickless here, unwilling to report bad news accurately because they don't want to risk upsetting anyone in "the industry."

dice.camp

Geek Native: "The tabletop world mourns the loss of Louis Zocch…" - Dice.camp

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 5mo ago

Replying to

Gamescience faded in and out of existence for a few years, before Lou retired for real. He stopped manufacturing dice, retailer stocks ran out, and Goodman Games had to start sourcing inferior dice from China. I feel bad for all the young gamers who never saw Lou Zocchi selling dice. He was cool.

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 5mo ago

Replying to

Now Lou is gone, Gamescience will probably be gone soon, and we'll never know what the next dice shape would have been. You should still go buy some of his dice, though, while you still can.

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 5mo ago

Replying to

Although Gamescience didn't start manufacturing #dice until 1974, Zocchi was already thinking about dice in 1971, when he speculated about the possibilities of 10-sided dice in Wargamer's Newsletter. https://fourcats.co.uk/mags/files/WGN-110-May-71.pdf

fourcats.co.uk

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 5mo ago

Replying to

https://www.gamescience.com/ returned last year, but it's just selling dead stock. I've placed a few orders, and I get a little maudlin every time I receive a delivery from them, because I know it might be the last delivery from them.

Gamescience

Gamescience | Polyhedral Dice | Manufacturer

Gamescience manufactures gemstone and opaque dice in many colors. Take a look, there's something for everyone.

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 5mo ago

Replying to

Zocchi invented the idea of "premium dice" in 1974, charging 4x as much as TSR's #TTRPG dice, but guaranteeing high-impact Gamescience dice would last longer. By longer, Lou meant "two years" -- this ad is from 1978! https://archive.org/bcdownload/November1978/April-1978.pdf Yes, TSR's #dice were that bad back then.

archive.org

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 5mo ago

Replying to

Lou retired, then unretired. @goodmangames@bird.makeup built the Dungeon Crawl Classics #TTRPG around "Zocchi dice," exposing even more people to Lou's work. Gamescience merged with GameStation, which didn't work out so well. https://icv2.com/articles/games/view/14532/gamestation-acquires-gamescience

ICv2

GameStation Acquires GameScience

Deal Completed This Month

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 5mo ago

Replying to

The Armory tried to match Lou's energy by releasing the d30 in 1982, but it was not useful and didn't catch on. Lou created the 100-sided Zocchihedron in 1986, then didn't add any new #dice shapes until he co-designed a 16-sider for 1993's MetaScape #TTRPG. https://dicecollector.com/images/large/cc/f1bd52ca99282cc7e1eb000f3be37f.jpg

dicecollector.com

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 5mo ago

Replying to

@kyonshi@dice.camp They haven't been too central to the discussion, because most early plastic soldier makers matched the metal soldier scales. I have purchased some #Airfix figures just to measure, though, because they're influential in the development of 20mm and 25mm scales. https://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/ShowFeature.aspx?id=212

plasticsoldierreview.com

Plastic Soldier Review

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 6mo ago

Replying to

Barrett apparently owns a #miniatures company that only makes minis of Civil War ships? Slightly ironic he was so focused on human figure scales. https://tbfigures.square.site/about And one of his customers in the 1990s was the owner of The Miniatures Page! https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.miniatures.historical/c/2lUzog_thyo

tbfigures.square.site

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 6mo ago

Replying to

The cultural shift is beginning to make sense here: An influential magazine started using a new system in 1990, #wargamers started using it, and by the end of the decade, everyone convinced themselves the original system didn't exist! Gamers have pliable minds. Also, a lot of companies are advertising their #miniatures as 28mm by the end of the decade, too. I suspect having two simultaneous shifts in how we measure miniatures broke everyone's brains a little.

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 4mo ago

Just discovered #Amazon has an "About You" section that lists what it's discerned about my consumer preferences. Amazon isn't quite sure if I own a car, but it is sure that I play games with "specialty #dice."

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 4mo ago

Just bought two badges and started two wishlists. I guess I'm going to #GenCon this summer!

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 5mo ago

Replying to

@Quasit@kolektiva.social And it's still in stock if you need a replacement! https://www.gamescience.com/?Category=Four%2520Most

Gamescience

Gamescience | Polyhedral Dice | Manufacturer

Gamescience manufactures gemstone and opaque dice in many colors. Take a look, there's something for everyone.

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 5mo ago

Replying to

@Quasit@kolektiva.social That one's a good example of the other half of Zocchi's #dice business -- he'd buy out the stock of failed dice companies and sell them to us weirdo dice collector. The d7 and d50 #Gamescience sold also started at other companies.

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 5mo ago

I'm not an #MTG player, so I'm very confused that #WOTC (and an artist) had to apologize for The One Ring looking too similar on two cards for the same game.

Like, shouldn't they look like the same ring? There's only so many ways to draw a gold ring, folks!

https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/62298/famed-magic-mox-artist-dan-frazier-wizards-coast-issue-joint-apology

ICv2

Famed

For New

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 5mo ago

Replying to

Found an even earlier reference to measuring #miniatures by eye height in the November 1979 issue of #DragonMagazine. It's also the earliest article I've found that describes "six feet" as the average soldier height.

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 6mo ago

Replying to

Meanwhile, online resources keep describing Nuremberg Scale as 28mm to eye level. I feel like *somebody* is rewriting #toysoldier history here, and I don't know who it is, because nobody is giving me good citations.

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 6mo ago

Replying to

(When I started this historical quest, I feared a lot of the history happened in lost media like CompuServe or FidoNet. That doesn't seem to be the case. The #wargamers who wrote Wargames Newsletter in the 60s wrote the Courier in the 80s and wrote USENET in the 90s, and joined TMP in the 2000s! It's an impressive degree of continuity.)

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 6mo ago

Replying to

If you want to read the whole article, you can buy a PDF of that issue from Wargames Vault, a subsidiary of @drivethrurpg@bird.makeup Within three issues, The Courier was using the Barrett Measurement Scale in every product review. https://www.wargamevault.com/en/product/98837/the-courier-vol-9-no-5

wargamevault.com

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 5mo ago

Replying to

Which hints at another problem analyzing old texts on this topic. Authors are often converting inch measurements to millimeters, and I can't always trust those conversions, because I don't know how precise their conversion was!

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 6mo ago

Replying to

Barrett's Courier article references a letter he wrote to the Midwest Wargamer's Association Newsletter. I didn't used to collect MWAN, but I guess I do now, because I ordered a copy of that issue from Noble Knight Games. I can always count on them to enable my weird gaming impulses!

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 6mo ago

Replying to

(Footnote: In 1973-4, #Minifigs ran ads describing their art director Dick Higgs as "the originator" of 25mm. I guess they wanted him to get credit for the scale creep that triggered Scruby?)

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 6mo ago

Replying to

By the 2000s, #miniatures scales were (and still are) a mess. Some sources reclassify 80s #GrenadierModels and #RalPartha as 28mm (fair-ish enough) while other sources classify "true 28mm" as 28mm to the eye. All the attempts at making it easier to compare different miniature lines have made it worse! (Don't get me started on "Heroic Scale.") Sometimes, I take rulers to game conventions. I have shopping rulers!

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 6mo ago

Replying to

Back to Mr Barrett. At various points, The Courier called him "Toby," "Tony," or "Tobey." I think "Toby" is correct. Armed with a name, I went back to Google searches. Most of the USENET references were about about HMGS drama. (No shade there; I've had my share of game club drama, too.) https://hmgs.org/

hmgs.org

HMGS Home | HMGS.org

HMGS, Inc., the Historical Miniatures Gaming Society, is an educational 501(c)3 (non-profit) organization whose purpose is to promote the study of military ...

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 1mo ago

Replying to

That "Fantasysmith" Dragon article does not have a byline. DragonDex and RPGGeek both ascribe it to Phil Neuscheler, who seems to have written most of Dragon's #miniatures articles in 1979 and 1980. https://rpggeek.com/rpgdesigner/41119/phil-neuscheler In 2017, Neuscheler trademarked "Fantasysmith!" https://trademarks.justia.com/877/34/fantasysmith-87734678.html As someone who's stuck with "Contrarian" for 20+ years, I respect Phil's commitment to his brand.

rpggeek.com

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 6mo ago

Replying to

@tithegha@mas.to The tall hat problem is often cited in those old discussions, but it still feels like an excuse to me (or maybe just a solution for the wrong problem). 1950s gamers trusted each other to know where a man's head ends, but 1990s gamers didn't? #ToySoldier collectors still use the top-of-head scales, and they don't have the degree of confusion that gamers created by trying to change the measurement standard.

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 1mo ago

Replying to

Phil and I apparently have two mutual friends on Facebook, but one of those friends is deceased. We're all getting old, and researching old school game history often feels like a race against the Grim Reaper.

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 6mo ago

Replying to

So, in semi-conclusion: The two most important names in the history of #miniatures scales are Jack Scruby and Toby Barrett, no #TTRPG players (and few young #wargamers) know that, and anybody who tells you miniatures scales are easy and logical is lying to you. I said "semi-conclusion" because there are details I still need to nitpick!

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 6mo ago

Replying to

In both his letter and his article, Barrett claims the eye-height measurement is an old #toysoldier standard that he's re-introducing. In the MWAN letter, he even claims "This was a universally accepted method and was ignored by only a small minority of manufacturers." What was he talking about?

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 6mo ago

Replying to

I know (from reading three books about #toysoldiers during this search) that German toy makers attempted some standardization in the 1840s, but sources are confused about whether those were head-height or eye-height standards. Take, for example, Heinrichsen's oft-cited "Nuremberg scale."

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 6mo ago

Replying to

Meanwhile, I also found a stray message board reference to Edward "Willie" Suren using the "eye-height" argument in the 1970s. I'm looking for that as I explore 1970s #wargaming literature but haven't found any supporting evidence yet (other than Don Featherstone constant complaining Willie's 30mm figures were too tall). http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=520600

theminiaturespage.com

[TMP] "So what does "True" mean?" Topic

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 6mo ago

Replying to

The Nuremberg Scale is often cited, but inconsistently described. History books describe it as overall height, but list different heights like 28mm, 30mm, or 1⅓ inches!

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 1mo ago

Replying to

I picked up two more issues of the MWAN newsletter to look for responses to Toby Barrett's original letter, and what did I find? A second person claiming they learned about the eye-height standard from Willie Suren! Shit, is this all going to trace back to Suren making excuses for his 1970s #scalecreep?

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 5mo ago

Replying to

Using "six feet" as the average soldier height for miniatures measured in millimeters is already awkward, because it requires a metric-to-English conversion that can introduce rounding errors. Converting at the beginning of the ratio calculation will multiply the effects of rounding errors.

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 6mo ago

Replying to

I realize, of course, the historical citations I really need are probably in German. I guess I need to learn German now. In any event, *if* Barrett was referring to German toy soldier scales, the "small minority of manufacturers" who ignored it is probably the entire English-speaking world.

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Contrarian @contrarian@dice.camp

· 1mo ago

Replying to

I emailed Thoroughbred Figures, and its owner confirmed he's the same Toby Barrett who wrote The Courier editorial. Unfortunately, he can't recall what his original reference for the eye-height standard was, but he thinks "European Guilds" were "probably" responsible. That at least suggests I'm barking up the right tree by looking for the Nuremberg Scale.

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